[Discussion] On the Gods and the World, Ch. XIX

[sdi]

Happy Wednesday! Let's pick the puzzle-box right back up, shall we?

XIX. Why sinners are not punished at once.

There is no need to be surprised if neither these sins nor yet others bring immediate punishment upon sinners. For it is not only Spirits* who punish the soul, the Soul brings itself to judgement: and also it is not right for those who endure for ever to attain everything in a short time: and also, there is need of human virtue. If punishment followed instantly upon sin, men would act justly from fear and have no virtue.

Souls are punished when they have gone forth from the body, some wandering among us, some going to hot or cold places of the earth, some harassed by Spirits. Under all circumstances they suffer with the irrational part of their nature, with which they also sinned. For its sake† there subsist that shadowy body‡ which is seen about graves, especially the graves of evil livers.§

* Gilbert Murray notes, "δαίμονες ['daimones']."

† Murray notes, "i. e. that it may continue to exist and satisfy justice."

‡ Thomas Taylor notes, "see my Introduction to, and translation of, Plato's Phædo."

§ Yes, Murray really says "evil livers." Arthur Darby Nock does, too. They are referring to the wicked, not to digestive organs.

Comments

[sdi]

For it is not only Spirits who punish the soul, the Soul brings itself to judgement:

Are the spirits referred to here a nod to the Erinyes, or is this referring to something in the Neoplatonist tradition?

Arthur Darby Nock notes that the soul punishes itself is a rhetorical commonplace. It's also near-universal in the literature of near-death experiences (Life After Life, by Raymond Moody, containing perhaps the archetypal example; but see the Myth of Er at the end of Plato's Republic for a counter-example).

[boccaderlupo]

I will punt on that question. Not sure if it refers specifically to the Kindly Ones or to spirits in general.

There is some deep resonance here on the soul bringing itself to judgement with things we spoke about in previous editions, I believe, but I can't recall which installment offhand. Will bear some meditation...

I find the disambiguation of "evil livers" and "evil livers" to be hilarious.

[barefootwisdom]

It turns out, there were some juicy tidbits about exactly this question (the punishing daemones) on the latest episode of the SHWEP that went up yesterday! Short answer seems to be: not quite, though there are some outstanding ambiguities.

And I, too, have been getting some good belly laughs over "evil livers"!

[boccaderlupo]

Shall give this a listen...I am hoping from the photo there is some mention of "Station to Station" in there... :)