[Discussion] On the Gods and the World, Ch. XI

[sdi]

Good morning and happy Wednesday! Sallustius gives us another brief chapter this week, so let's dive right in, shall we?

XI. Concerning right and wrong Social Organization.*

Constitutions† also depend on the tripartite nature of the Soul. The rulers are analogous to Reason, the soldiers to Fight, the common folk to Desires.

Where all things are done according to Reason and the best man in the nation rules, it is a Kingdom; where more than one rule according to Reason and Fight, it is an Aristocracy; where the government is according to Desire and offices depend on money,‡ that constitution is called a Timocracy. The contraries are: to Kingdom tyranny, for Kingdom does all things with the guidance of reason and tyranny nothing; to Aristocracy oligarchy, when not the best people but a few of the worst are rulers; to Timocracy democracy, when not the rich but the common folk possess the whole power.

* Gilbert Murray notes, "This section is a meagre reminiscence of Plato's discussion in Repub. viii. The interest in politics and government had died out with the loss of political freedom." Thomas Taylor notes similarly, and further recommends Proclus' Commentaries on it.

† That is, political constitutions. Taylor gives "polities."

‡ Taylor gives "property," while Arthur Darby Nock gives "wealth."

Comments

[neptunesdolphins]

Thanks for doing this. I appreciate reading what Sallustius has to say.

[sdi]

You're welcome! It's been very valuable to me, so thanks to everyone who's been following along and answering my dopey questions!

[boccaderlupo]

This one's interesting and thanks for those notes from Murray and Taylor. Never saw those comments, and fascinating to consider the deprecation of politics in light of the events of that era.

Also interesting to see how far down the list these cats rank democracy!

[sdi]

I was thinking that I have a bit of a difficult time even engaging with this chapter, since my only experience of the state is hostile: I've spent my adult life being attacked by every level of government—from local to county to state to federal—and spending a substantial fraction of my time dealing with it. I'm not sure I can even conceive of the "positive" forms of government mentioned herein! But reflecting upon it, I realize something that may be helpful to you all.

I have a pretty bad autoimmune disorder. This means that my body attacks itself: when I am healthier, my immune system is stronger, and it tears me apart faster than usual; when I am weak, my immune system is weak, and that lets me recover a little. So my physical strength tends to waffle a lot but usually ends up in a sort of twilight state, where I'm strong enough to function but not strong enough to thrive, all the while my body ages fairly quickly as the damage accumulates. This has prevented me from engaging in many of the things a lot of people take for granted, but on the other hand, without much to look forward to in the material world, it's pushed me to turn to the spiritual, which has been the best thing for me: I wouldn't have grown otherwise, and it's the start of moving beyond a strictly human existence.

Sallustius here is explicitly drawing the parallel between a human life and a societal life: that is, a state is simply a large organism in which we are cells of a sort. A state that attacks and destroys its own citizenry—like ours—is therefore no different than a body with an autoimmune disorder. From a strictly material perspective, this is foolish: such a state is simply going to waffle until it finally dies young. But from a more wholistic perspective, I imagine such a state of affairs causes much of the citizenry—and therefore the societal organism as a whole—to turn to the spiritual. Is this not a good thing, too? It's the start of moving beyond a strictly human-societal existence.

It seems a lot of souls—even, I suspect, societal-souls—are gearing up to make the leap beyond this world. The tough times we—and our societies—are in now are merely a symptom of that preparation. They'll get harder as the societal body winds down, but imagine what lies beyond, if you can...

We'll be talking about the problem of evil in next week's chapter of Sallustius, but it seems to me that what we perceive as evil today is merely preparation for tomorrow's good. I'm reminded of the saying, "a fool who persists in his folly becomes wise," and I see no reason to think that less true of a society than of an individual.

[boccaderlupo]

Well, first, a word about your condition: I pray that you have found relief from your suffering, and may the gods grant you peace, in whatever mode and degree you find that.

Your experience as related to the state as organism sounds like it contains some hard-earned wisdom, and certainly bears meditating on.

Axé,
Fra' Lupo

[temporaryreality]

This is another one of those chapters which, upon reading, I just nod and say, "alright, I'll take you at your word." :)

Meanwhile, about your longer post, above, sdi - you have given me much to consider. I've had few interactions with the state that would seem to approach the level of interference you've received, yet I do have an instinctive desire to NOT have the eye rotate and turn my way. I'm sure this is just a common-sense approach - who, after all, seeks out officials unless they can do something FOR you rather than against you? One always hopes to approach the gatekeepers unobtrusively and be granted passage without having to owe too much.

You remind me, though, that whatever the reason for my (thus far and knock on wood) not being paid too much attention by government types, the institution of government, and the conceptual realm that gives rise to the various options, is of course a useful metaphor for an individual (and vice versa)... (Yes, I know I'm late to the game to figure this out, but there it is. I have not yet read Plato's Republic ... preschool and all that).

I'm still mulling over the latter part of your post - it strikes me as a useful line of thought as well.

I suspect that there is little consolation that can be provided you - for the burdens and struggles you have met with in this life - from a simple across-the-internet's-wires message, but I am very grateful that your path has put you here, where we can converse and you can share the insights afforded you by those very burdens and struggles. Perhaps the best blessing one can receive from such a situation is the awareness of how much more there is than just the physical/temporal/conditioned realm, and I'm glad that you have arrived on this shore that is so worthy of exploration.

[sdi]

Thank you both :)